Mike and Chaya chat with trauma-informed therapist Shoshana Cook, who delves into Attachment Theory, shedding light on the shortcomings in mental health treatment related to it and advocating for a more comprehensive approach.
Mike and Chaya chat with trauma-informed therapist Shoshana Cook, who delves into Attachment Theory, shedding light on the shortcomings in mental health treatment related to it and advocating for a more comprehensive approach.
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About Shoshana Cook:
Shoshana began her career in 2019 at a non-profit adolescent lockdown facility in Maryland. She identified gaps in the system that needed change for a more ethical, individual-focused approach to take hold. After working with adults experiencing severe mental health issues, she transferred to the substance abuse and co-occurring disorder unit, staying until early 2023. Through these roles, she gained insights into treatment misconceptions and the importance of diversity. Now in private practice, she works with adults impacted by trauma, understanding that unhealed trauma often underlies many other issues.
"Heal it at the root and then the branches and leaves will also flourish"
Connect With Shoshana:
[Mike] [32.62s] Hello there.
[Mike] [33.66s] I'm Mike.
[Chaya] [34.38s] I'm Chaya.
[Mike] [35.50s] Today, we're talking to Shoshana Cook, who started her career at a nonprofit adolescent lockdown facility in Maryland.
[Mike] [43.26s] And while there, she saw a lot of gaps that needed to be filled for a more ethical and moral system focused on individuals and less on organizations.
[Mike] [53.48s] Through her experience working with adults facing psychosis, suicidal and homicidal ideation, substance abuse and co occurring disorders, among other severe mental health illnesses.
[Mike] [63.11s] She's worked hard to understand the misconceptions about treatment interventions, the systems already in place, and the importance of diversity.
[Mike] [70.23s] She is now in private practice working with adults experiencing the impacts of trauma.
[Mike] [75.13s] Welcome.
[Shoshana Cook] [75.53s] Thank you so much.
[Shoshana Cook] [76.09s] Thank you for having me today.
[Chaya] [77.30s] So so, Shoshanna, I gonna ask what is trauma, but then your background seems so interesting and and looks like it had an impact as to why you're doing what you're doing.
[Chaya] [92.77s] So if you can talk a little bit about your background, that'll be great.
[Shoshana Cook] [97.73s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [98.13s] So I guess to answer your, you know, your first question, trauma I think there needs to be a differentiation between trauma and PTSD.
[Shoshana Cook] [105.28s] We can experience things that are traumatic, and they are truly traumatic.
[Shoshana Cook] [108.80s] But it doesn't mean that we necessarily have PTSD.
[Shoshana Cook] [111.03s] And I think sometimes when trauma, whether it's, like, out on social media or whatever, it's like, oh my gosh, like, if it's like, you know, if you have these three things, then that means you have trauma.
[Shoshana Cook] [120.29s] And then everyone's like, oh, my gosh.
[Shoshana Cook] [121.57s] I have PTSD.
[Shoshana Cook] [122.45s] Look at that.
[Shoshana Cook] [122.93s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [123.57s] So they are different.
[Shoshana Cook] [124.77s] And what trauma essentially is, it's not really about what happened to you.
[Shoshana Cook] [128.77s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [129.01s] It's not about the car accident or the assault or whatever.
[Shoshana Cook] [132.85s] It's about how it's impacting you.
[Shoshana Cook] [135.15s] So 2 people can go through very similar or even, you know, quote unquote same experience and can come up very differently.
[Shoshana Cook] [141.71s] What happens is that when we get overwhelmed, when we get stressed, our nervous system, it spikes.
[Shoshana Cook] [146.45s] So our heart rate starts beating really fast.
[Shoshana Cook] [148.45s] We start getting sweaty.
[Shoshana Cook] [150.37s] Our prefrontal cortex, so the front part of the brain, the logic kind of goes offline and all this stuff.
[Shoshana Cook] [154.85s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [155.41s] And if we can regulate ourselves, right, if we can make sure that our heart rate is at an all pace and all these things in our nervous system, it kind of spikes, and then it goes down.
[Shoshana Cook] [165.28s] And that's when we don't experience the lasting impacts of PTSD.
[Shoshana Cook] [169.13s] If for whatever reason we can't, whether we're just so distressed, so dysregulated, or maybe we physically can't, right?
[Shoshana Cook] [175.53s] Like maybe for a long time, we're stuck in a car accident where we can't get out of the car, or we're in, you know, a a long term domestic violence, whether it's partner or family, you know, relationship, and we physically cannot get out, that's when we kind of experience those impacts of trauma.
[Shoshana Cook] [191.31s] So I think it was Gabriel Matej who said it, that trauma isn't what happened to you.
[Shoshana Cook] [195.38s] It's not the event that happened to you.
[Shoshana Cook] [196.99s] It's what happens inside of you.
[Shoshana Cook] [198.43s] So that's kind of my answer there.
[Shoshana Cook] [199.78s] I think that, you know, we can have a breakup, right, a really traumatic breakup, and it can we can experience that trauma.
[Shoshana Cook] [206.40s] It doesn't mean that we have PTSD from breaking up with someone.
[Shoshana Cook] [209.52s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [209.92s] So that's kind of, you know, my disclaimer on trauma there.
[Shoshana Cook] [212.72s] And as for your second question, yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [214.56s] So I actually I started in 2019.
[Shoshana Cook] [216.72s] I worked at a nonprofit kind of in the area.
[Shoshana Cook] [219.44s] I think it's Shepard Pratt.
[Shoshana Cook] [221.03s] So it's a pretty large one.
[Shoshana Cook] [222.94s] I worked there essentially right before COVID.
[Shoshana Cook] [225.59s] So I worked with teen boys in lockdown.
[Shoshana Cook] [227.82s] A lot of them, they were, they went to court for some type of sexual assault, whether it was done to them or vice versa.
[Shoshana Cook] [235.46s] And, and, yeah, so I work with them.
[Shoshana Cook] [237.14s] We work a lot on kind of the impacts of how that impacted them.
[Shoshana Cook] [240.42s] And I always say that in order to heal the behavior, we have to heal the root.
[Shoshana Cook] [244.18s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [244.50s] In order to change how we respond to things, we have to figure out why we respond to things.
[Shoshana Cook] [250.09s] And so I work with them.
[Shoshana Cook] [251.53s] It wasn't actually as I think I went into it thinking, oh my gosh, like, this is gonna be scary.
[Shoshana Cook] [256.49s] I'm terrified.
[Shoshana Cook] [257.61s] And it wasn't, you know, these are just kids that have been victimized.
[Shoshana Cook] [260.56s] And, you know, we were obviously given the skills to work with them, so we weren't just just, like, you know, thrown to the wolves.
[Shoshana Cook] [266.42s] I started there, and I do like working with with adolescents.
[Shoshana Cook] [269.54s] I do work like working with teens.
[Shoshana Cook] [271.30s] I think my biggest struggle with that is that because I work really solely right now with trauma, a lot of the times, and not always, but a lot of the times the parents are a big factor of that.
[Shoshana Cook] [281.94s] And so having to work with someone and give them skills and knowing they're just going to go back home for me is difficult.
[Shoshana Cook] [289.51s] And part of being a therapist and part of being a clinician is understanding what things that are a little bit, I guess, more shaky on the side of professionalism.
[Shoshana Cook] [297.83s] Like what is a little bit too, you know, hits too too hard home or, you know, things like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [302.47s] So that's one of those things that I don't necessarily work with as much.
[Shoshana Cook] [306.04s] I do still have a few teen clients now though.
[Shoshana Cook] [308.35s] And so that, yeah, from there, I started working with adults and really it was just COVID and I was waiting to get my, you know, one of my degrees so I could work there.
[Shoshana Cook] [317.87s] Obviously, minimum wage, of course, you know, bachelor's in minimum wage, you know.
[Shoshana Cook] [321.23s] And I worked there for, I think, about 3 years.
[Shoshana Cook] [323.79s] I loved it.
[Shoshana Cook] [324.35s] But I, again, you know, I really saw that trauma is that mediating factor.
[Shoshana Cook] [328.35s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [328.83s] It's you you're using substances because you're trying to drown the trauma out.
[Shoshana Cook] [332.93s] Or you're having anxiety, or you're having even, like, you know, personality disorder or attack insecure attachment styles because of the trauma you experienced.
[Shoshana Cook] [341.56s] So now I very much go into it.
[Shoshana Cook] [343.40s] I don't wanna put a band aid on your issues.
[Shoshana Cook] [345.08s] I mean, of course, like, you know, it's not like I'll be like, oh, you're self harming and using substances.
[Shoshana Cook] [349.97s] Great.
[Shoshana Cook] [350.29s] Let's go.
[Shoshana Cook] [350.77s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [351.17s] So there will be some level of band aid use, but really my goal is to get to that route, to get to that, you know, core problem.
[Chaya] [357.89s] One thing what really stood out was, what you told about, what each person experiences is very unique because this 2 2 people can go through that same experience, but feel completely different inside.
[Chaya] [374.45s] So for instance, siblings, right.
[Chaya] [376.61s] Or classmates, they all go through the same experience with the same set of parents, same set of teachers, same school, same setting.
[Chaya] [384.45s] But they all could feel differently based on their makeup, genetic makeup, or composition, whatever that's that makes us unique.
[Chaya] [396.32s] So that's why, I mean, I've always known not to compare yourself to to another individual from that same setting.
[Chaya] [402.86s] But but then you just look at the world, everyone's comparing.
[Chaya] [407.26s] And and and it's just so so wrong.
[Chaya] [410.54s] I know it's wrong, but but a lot of issues are because we are telling I I think sometimes we are even imposing our own personal beliefs onto somebody else, right, without knowing who they are or what they're made up of.
[Chaya] [426.12s] So I think that point, what you mentioned really stood out
[Shoshana Cook] [430.27s] for me.
[Shoshana Cook] [430.75s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [431.12s] And I think we do this thing, and I was actually talking to someone about it the other day of how the whole phrase I I I have issues with it.
[Shoshana Cook] [437.76s] The whole phrase of, you know, put yourself in someone else's shoes.
[Shoshana Cook] [440.64s] Because we're our shoes are different.
[Shoshana Cook] [443.04s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [443.28s] Our feet are different.
[Shoshana Cook] [444.08s] Someone may have socks.
[Shoshana Cook] [445.12s] Someone may not.
[Shoshana Cook] [446.13s] You know, if you flip flops, for example, right, if you just say, well, just put yourself in those flip flops.
[Shoshana Cook] [450.94s] What if they're a different size?
[Shoshana Cook] [452.29s] Like, what if you already have socks on and they didn't have socks on?
[Shoshana Cook] [455.33s] I know for a fact putting flip flops on with socks on is very different than without, you know?
[Shoshana Cook] [459.76s] And I think, you know, we have this tendency as humans, as people, right, to compare ourselves, but we kind of we look at the iceberg.
[Shoshana Cook] [466.56s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [466.80s] We look at that tip of the iceberg that that person wants to show us and compare it to everything of us.
[Shoshana Cook] [472.05s] And I think that's one of the reasons why it goes really wrong, and we are people that are very, you know, multifaceted.
[Shoshana Cook] [477.73s] We're very complex.
[Shoshana Cook] [478.93s] You know, I may look at someone on social media and say, oh my gosh, I wish I was like that person, but I'm not really considering their upbringing.
[Shoshana Cook] [485.44s] I'm not considering their resources.
[Shoshana Cook] [487.24s] I'm not considering their social support, how they got to that place even.
[Shoshana Cook] [491.24s] You know?
[Shoshana Cook] [491.96s] I'm not considering their flaws.
[Shoshana Cook] [493.16s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [493.40s] Because I'm just looking at that perfect photoshopped or non photoshopped, you know, image.
[Shoshana Cook] [497.40s] I'm not looking at them, but I'm looking at all of me.
[Shoshana Cook] [500.01s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [500.25s] I'm looking at all of my issues, all of my flaws, all of my, you know, my upbringing and this and that.
[Shoshana Cook] [505.13s] And I think if we're gonna compare ourselves to other people, then compare our whole selves with their whole selves or compare our tip of the iceberg, but we wanna show people with their tip of the iceberg.
[Shoshana Cook] [515.31s] Otherwise, it's not, you know, it's not fair to us, right?
[Mike] [517.71s] Yeah.
[Mike] [518.11s] I I've never liked the walk in somebody else's shoes metaphor, so I'm so glad you dunked on that.
[Mike] [523.15s] Trauma comparison is so easy to fall into.
[Mike] [526.43s] I mean, comparison of of anything, but particularly, I think with trauma, when you have a lot of when you're someone with a lot of strong empathy towards others, and also maybe a low sense of self, that's when you start comparing as a comparing as a mode of self harm.
[Mike] [543.08s] I definitely had I've had a form of that in the past, and I've seen it in others.
[Mike] [547.21s] And it is a bad circular trap to find yourself in because you'll always look for reasons to why yours is is lesser or, you know, everybody everybody has their own brand of suffering and one brand supposed to be greater than the other.
[Mike] [562.58s] And as I've there's probably friends who are gonna roll their eyes when I say this because I say it very often, which is there's there is big tree, big t trauma and little t trauma, but the brain doesn't care about capitalization because that is a social construct created as a form of language, your brain doesn't care about that.
[Mike] [582.30s] It's gonna react exactly the same.
[Mike] [584.22s] So I know I have had forms of trauma in my life.
[Mike] [587.88s] And I had a hard time in my younger years, accepting that, and even accepting it now because of a lot of other suffering that's going on or things that other, you know, friends go through, and suddenly mine feel less unwieldy.
[Mike] [601.86s] But all because they feel that way in comparison doesn't mean their reactionary aspects don't harm me the same way.
[Mike] [610.26s] And that goes for for everybody for and this is, something that I kind of came across myself a few years ago.
[Mike] [617.12s] Funny, you mentioned Shepherd Pratt, I was almost hospitalized there a couple years ago, the eating disorder part of it.
[Mike] [622.71s] So I'm kind of familiar.
[Mike] [624.07s] I've talked with people on the eating disorder side there.
[Mike] [626.55s] And so I had I suffered from anorexia.
[Mike] [629.79s] And through that, I would binge have binge episodes.
[Mike] [633.39s] And I actually as I came to learn more about ARFID, I realized ARFID can be caused actually by trauma related to food or vomiting or, you know, numerous things.
[Mike] [644.43s] But for my for me, it was the sensation of being overly full from a binge would trigger sense memories that would then bring me back.
[Mike] [653.85s] So any feeling of fullness would cause me to feel like the same kind of traumatic self hate and uncomfortable feeling even if it didn't match.
[Mike] [662.67s] I've been being autistic.
[Mike] [663.71s] I have I've always been overly sensitive to feelings of fullness.
[Mike] [667.95s] So that was a combination of things.
[Mike] [670.99s] And that's really, I think, what opened my eyes to, like, the complexity of different forms of trauma and how they can manifest in completely different ways.
[Mike] [681.17s] Like, it's not just the surface level stereotypical trauma that you see.
[Mike] [686.58s] There are many little, quote, unquote, little forms of trauma that can build up even in, like, your just daily life.
[Shoshana Cook] [693.46s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [693.70s] No.
[Shoshana Cook] [693.94s] Thank you for sharing.
[Shoshana Cook] [694.82s] And I guess something else kind of what I wanna point out, you know, in addition to kind of what you shared is that I think that having a quote unquote, like, little t trauma is in some ways almost worse.
[Shoshana Cook] [705.01s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [705.34s] It's almost almost more traumatic because no one gets it.
[Shoshana Cook] [708.38s] And kind of this idea of like, what's the deal?
[Shoshana Cook] [710.70s] Like, why are you just getting over it?
[Shoshana Cook] [712.46s] Or like, it happened a long time ago and all those toxic, you know, comments that you get.
[Shoshana Cook] [716.35s] But I think that one of the hardest things about having those quote unquote little t traumas is that we it's hard to verbalize it.
[Shoshana Cook] [722.91s] You know, it's hard for to get people to get it.
[Shoshana Cook] [725.07s] If we say to someone, you know, if we share this, you know, really big T trauma, like this thing that is super horrific that everyone's going to be like, oh my gosh, like that is so, like, I'm so sorry.
[Shoshana Cook] [735.14s] I'm, you know, that's horrible.
[Shoshana Cook] [736.99s] Then they get that empathy, right?
[Shoshana Cook] [738.42s] They get that understanding from their friends, from their family, etcetera.
[Shoshana Cook] [742.64s] And something that I hear a lot actually with domestic violence, and I use the word domestic violence very loosely, as in it can be, I think a lot of times people think, oh, it's partners.
[Shoshana Cook] [751.36s] It's not always partners.
[Shoshana Cook] [752.48s] Sometimes it's parents.
[Shoshana Cook] [753.44s] Sometimes it's even kids.
[Shoshana Cook] [755.20s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [755.76s] And is that I didn't mind getting hit, but the worst thing was that verbal abuse, if that sticks with you.
[Shoshana Cook] [761.89s] And so that's something I always kind of point out in that, you know, I think also as a society where it kind of like, you know, the, the really old phrase, sticks and stones won't break my bones or will break my bones and words will never hurt me.
[Shoshana Cook] [772.66s] You know?
[Shoshana Cook] [773.30s] And I think that while a lot of us, you know, in this new era don't necessarily, you know, resonate with that, I think it's still kind of in the back of our head of like, how am I gonna tell someone that, you know, my mother, my, you know, at school, up here, whatever, like they said something and it really hurt me, but they shouldn't hit me.
[Shoshana Cook] [791.77s] So, you know, and I think that there's this new added layer of silence.
[Shoshana Cook] [797.62s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [797.93s] And part of trauma is not necessarily sharing your entire story with the world, but not feeling like you're being silenced, not feeling like you're being restricted.
[Shoshana Cook] [806.46s] Because a lot of trauma is not having that control, right, of not having that ability to feel free.
[Shoshana Cook] [812.62s] And it goes for that, of those quote unquote little traumas.
[Shoshana Cook] [815.17s] It also goes for people actually who are in really wealthy families, who are in really, you know, privileged, you know, so to speak, families.
[Shoshana Cook] [823.33s] Because who am I to say that I had grown up in a good school, and my parents were really rich, and they were really reputable, and they also have trauma.
[Shoshana Cook] [830.75s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [831.15s] And it's like this weird dynamic.
[Shoshana Cook] [832.59s] And I think we forget, not just as people, but also as a society, that 2 things can happen at the same time.
[Shoshana Cook] [838.19s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [838.65s] We can grow up in a wealthy home, and we can be traumatized.
[Shoshana Cook] [841.70s] And yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [842.65s] No.
[Shoshana Cook] [842.89s] I definitely I hear you.
[Shoshana Cook] [844.01s] And I think that there is an extra added, you know, unfortunate, obviously, layer when it comes to people that are traumatized that don't unquote look traumatized.
[Shoshana Cook] [852.89s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [853.21s] They're not starving.
[Shoshana Cook] [854.17s] They're not they don't have bruises all over them.
[Shoshana Cook] [856.97s] They don't have broken bones.
[Shoshana Cook] [858.25s] And, you know, again, we as a society, we like to we like to believe things that we see.
[Shoshana Cook] [862.65s] We like to believe things that we can visually look at.
[Shoshana Cook] [865.49s] And when we can, it feels I think there's a lot of invalidating.
[Shoshana Cook] [868.76s] And whether that's self invalidating or external validating, I think it's still it's still there.
[Shoshana Cook] [873.16s] It does impact someone's ability to heal.
[Shoshana Cook] [874.92s] Because why am I gonna go to a therapist when, like, I'm fine, you know?
[Mike] [878.21s] Yeah.
[Mike] [878.37s] Exactly.
[Mike] [878.85s] And invalidation is trauma.
[Mike] [881.65s] Traumatic invalidation is something that especially happens with, going back to this podcast itself, neurodivergent individuals constantly invalidated their experiences, invalidated their sensory issues invalidated and all that.
[Mike] [896.10s] Like you said, it's a lot of times the the macro traumas are big or a large event that took place, while maybe the micro traumas are repeating events that back up to one another.
[Mike] [910.35s] So in that way, while on the maybe outside or if you were to write it down, you know, in a academic paper, it's it seems larger than it is, you know, it looks like the big iceberg.
[Mike] [922.99s] Really, they're they're equal in parts.
[Mike] [925.62s] And they as as I said, the brain is gonna react to them pretty similarly.
[Mike] [930.82s] And it takes the same kind of efforts and treatments to I hate using the word combat them, but it's still appropriate in a lot of ways.
[Mike] [942.23s] Combat them and some of the harmful manifestations they they can create, particularly when it comes to, I think, self harm comes up a lot.
[Mike] [951.67s] And I mean, not to keep going back to me, but also, you know, the eating disorder was in a lot of ways, another manifestation of that.
[Mike] [959.21s] And one thing I am curious about is a lot when it comes to trauma and that there's dissociation and very much like emotional numbing.
[Mike] [969.45s] I was curious how you approach that in trauma therapy whenever an episode is occurring or how to navigate those episodes?
[Shoshana Cook] [980.25s] Mhmm.
[Shoshana Cook] [980.80s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [981.21s] So dissociation is one of those difficult ones, right, because it's they're not comp 100% present in wherever they are.
[Shoshana Cook] [988.88s] So I usually try and catch it before it gets on to full on, you know, dissociation.
[Shoshana Cook] [993.86s] And a lot of that is grounding.
[Shoshana Cook] [995.14s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [995.46s] A lot of that is senses.
[Shoshana Cook] [996.74s] So whether it's catching things, whether it's feeling things, one method I really like to use, and I do modify it a little bit, but it's the, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 senses.
[Shoshana Cook] [1005.78s] I don't know if you're familiar with that at all, but technically, it's 5 things you can see, 4 things you can I think it's 4 things you can hear, 3 things you can touch, 2 things you can smell, and one thing you could taste?
[Shoshana Cook] [1017.75s] And I say, like, you can move around because I think sometimes or you can do things.
[Shoshana Cook] [1021.67s] So if you can't hear, you know, how many things, like, you know, tap on the desk or, you know, or you can't feel everything, like, you can move your hands, you can feel your shirt, like, whatever.
[Shoshana Cook] [1032.07s] I do modify it oftentimes because I usually just do the first three, and I will change the numbers.
[Shoshana Cook] [1037.70s] So I usually keep it at 5 because, generally, we can see 5 things.
[Shoshana Cook] [1041.55s] I don't always have 4 things we can hear, though.
[Shoshana Cook] [1043.70s] Sometimes I have 3.
[Shoshana Cook] [1044.83s] And then as 4 touching, usually around 2 or something like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [1047.97s] The reason is because when we're dissociating and when we're already a little bit out of it and dysregulated, we don't need to kind of give you a task that's gonna be too hard for you to handle because that's not gonna be effective.
[Shoshana Cook] [1058.45s] They're just something that's manageable, but enough so that you can kind of feel things.
[Shoshana Cook] [1062.03s] And so that's kind of how I work with that part.
[Shoshana Cook] [1064.60s] But I also use an intervention called IFS or Parts Therapy, otherwise known as Internal Family Systems.
[Shoshana Cook] [1070.36s] It has absolutely nothing to do with families.
[Shoshana Cook] [1072.36s] But it's this idea that we are humans of any parts.
[Shoshana Cook] [1075.61s] And we all have parts, you know, whether we have trauma or not.
[Shoshana Cook] [1078.57s] But generally, people who do experience trauma, they are people who they're a little bit more split.
[Shoshana Cook] [1083.05s] So they are the people that say, I really want this relationship, and I'm really terrified.
[Shoshana Cook] [1088.01s] And they're the people that and not everyone, obviously, but the people that may say, I really love this person, and I want to push them away.
[Shoshana Cook] [1095.71s] Because if I push them away, they can't reject me.
[Shoshana Cook] [1098.04s] And they have a lot of these conflicting feelings and these conflicting, you know, parts.
[Shoshana Cook] [1102.28s] And so what we do with that is we'll actually create a part.
[Shoshana Cook] [1105.91s] In creating a part, it means visualizing the part and of seeing the part and talking to it.
[Shoshana Cook] [1110.63s] And it I think it helps a lot being able to talk to something else.
[Shoshana Cook] [1114.15s] Because sometimes when we're, for example, depressed, right, we don't wanna say, I'm gonna get up for myself.
[Shoshana Cook] [1118.88s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1119.29s] Maybe we can say, I'm going to get up for this part.
[Shoshana Cook] [1121.37s] Or instead of saying, you know, I hate myself or I feel this way, I feel this way, we can say, this part really dislikes me.
[Shoshana Cook] [1128.49s] And with all parts, they are doing their very best to protect us, and they just don't have the skills to know how to do it right.
[Shoshana Cook] [1134.69s] So even with body image, body image actually comes a lot in art therapy.
[Shoshana Cook] [1138.53s] And so, generally, what happens is that, you know, you may find that there's this part that's saying, you know, you don't look good.
[Shoshana Cook] [1144.69s] You are not gonna look cute in this outfit because x, y, and z.
[Shoshana Cook] [1148.37s] And so that we say, you know, what's the fear?
[Shoshana Cook] [1151.10s] Like, what's going on behind it?
[Shoshana Cook] [1152.45s] Like, what if we don't look good in this outfit?
[Shoshana Cook] [1154.93s] You know, what if we don't what if we're not cute in this dress or this shirt or, you know, whatever?
[Shoshana Cook] [1159.73s] Like, what happens then?
[Shoshana Cook] [1160.78s] And then after we kind of explored a little bit more, we figure out that if we keep telling ourselves that we look this way or that way, then it's that control piece.
[Shoshana Cook] [1169.96s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1170.20s] And it's like, what if I let myself go?
[Shoshana Cook] [1172.12s] Because that means I'm unacceptable.
[Shoshana Cook] [1173.72s] And if I'm unacceptable, that means I'm lonely, and that means I'll never find anyone.
[Shoshana Cook] [1177.32s] So really the fear is not about the body image.
[Shoshana Cook] [1179.77s] Really, the fear is about being alone.
[Shoshana Cook] [1181.53s] Really, the fear is about being rejected.
[Shoshana Cook] [1183.68s] And so then we work with that.
[Shoshana Cook] [1185.05s] And so it depends on where you look, like what study you look, but it's generally like a 90% ish success rate.
[Shoshana Cook] [1191.37s] So it is really good.
[Shoshana Cook] [1192.58s] And I have used it with clients who, you know, even after, like, 1 or 2 weeks, like, they're like, wow, I've seen a difference.
[Shoshana Cook] [1198.34s] And I'm like, good.
[Shoshana Cook] [1199.54s] So I don't even remember what initial question was actually dissociation.
[Shoshana Cook] [1203.62s] So, yes, I have used I've used this with dissociation.
[Shoshana Cook] [1206.58s] So when people kind of begin to kind of feel that dissociation coming on, because especially if you experienced it for, you know, pretty consistently in your life, you generally can kind of feel it coming on, whether it's just kind of feeling like out of your body, or you start, you know, you can't see things clearly.
[Shoshana Cook] [1222.63s] Dissociation happens in in very different ways.
[Shoshana Cook] [1225.67s] So I would so I say usually creating a part for that.
[Shoshana Cook] [1228.87s] And the other thing is that sometimes it's helpful.
[Shoshana Cook] [1232.07s] So that's kind of when we transition into harm reduction.
[Shoshana Cook] [1234.94s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1235.42s] If we are in a place where we are actually being traumatized, right, then sometimes it's helpful to just dissociate.
[Shoshana Cook] [1240.94s] You know, I don't necessarily, you know, use it as a therapeutic skill to try and do it.
[Shoshana Cook] [1246.10s] But I also am someone who I advocate for keeping ourselves as safe emotionally, physically, all the things as possible.
[Shoshana Cook] [1252.98s] So if we're in a place where we're emotionally being attacked in whatever way, then and if you feel like dissociation is the best way to kind of, again, with your word combat that, then go for it.
[Shoshana Cook] [1264.95s] Obviously, if you're being physically attacked, then I would not recommend or encourage in any way dissociation because that can be obviously harmful if you're kind of in that net freeze or fawn mode or whatnot.
[Shoshana Cook] [1276.31s] But, yeah, I think it, you know, all the dimensions and all all things that really depends on the client, kind of where they're at, their situation, all that kind of stuff.
[Shoshana Cook] [1283.75s] But, yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [1284.39s] So I would say, you know, a lot of grounding, a lot of, kind of, being the present, acknowledging your current senses, some parts therapy, and then also just understanding kind of the situation that you're in and what is most helpful for your for your, nervous system.
[Chaya] [1298.60s] And we always have that choice in us as to when we can use these tools.
[Chaya] [1304.43s] Because sometimes we want to be present.
[Chaya] [1308.92s] Right?
[Chaya] [1309.40s] We we our hearts desire to be present, but we are not.
[Chaya] [1312.84s] And so so using the techniques that you mentioned, I love the 54321 technique where you can just do that easily and bring yourself to the present moment.
[Chaya] [1323.11s] And, and because I did that a lot in school, it was going over my head.
[Chaya] [1328.55s] I, I, instead of forcing myself, I, I disassociated beautifully and it worked out.
[Chaya] [1335.11s] So I, I might have rejected a lot of trauma, that could have happened, but I know I did take in, especially you brought about verbal views from teachers.
[Chaya] [1345.40s] For instance, when I was daydreaming and when I was disassociating, like I had teachers throw chalk at me or hit me with a duster on my head.
[Chaya] [1354.82s] Things like that did stay me.
[Chaya] [1356.65s] And I know it did play a lot throughout my life.
[Chaya] [1360.73s] And, and I've worked on building that confidence, which was taken away when I was a child and throughout my life, I've been working.
[Chaya] [1369.69s] And as I'm speaking, I'm still working on that, but I have ADHD and I know that the vortex is, is thinner.
[Chaya] [1377.79s] Right?
[Chaya] [1378.18s] The the there's actually a physical difference in in the brain.
[Chaya] [1382.18s] And I know we that that's why we get distracted because it's thinner.
[Chaya] [1386.35s] It is so can a lot of things that we probably shouldn't.
[Chaya] [1390.51s] Right?
[Chaya] [1390.66s] So it's for me, it's a very conscious effort not to listen.
[Chaya] [1394.68s] So I don't listen to the news.
[Chaya] [1396.76s] I I don't associate with a lot of things because I know I can get sucked in.
[Chaya] [1401.56s] And so but when you're a child, you don't know that.
[Chaya] [1405.16s] We we've never been taught that skill.
[Chaya] [1408.02s] That skill is something that I learned as an adult.
[Chaya] [1410.58s] But like verbal abuse, you could just soak it in as a child and internalize it and make it a part of your personality.
[Chaya] [1418.34s] Because especially public speaking, I never knew that I could speak publicly because of the things that were said.
[Chaya] [1425.43s] And and I don't even remember.
[Chaya] [1427.35s] Right?
[Chaya] [1427.67s] Which I don't even remember.
[Chaya] [1429.27s] But I believed I was never a public speaker.
[Chaya] [1431.91s] And I've even cried and frozen on stage one time because I thought I had to memorize and speak in a certain way or in a certain order.
[Chaya] [1442.90s] And and trauma like that, right, was not big because a lot of people have public speaking fears.
[Chaya] [1450.59s] But but then it played out in my life.
[Chaya] [1454.47s] Right?
[Chaya] [1454.95s] Maybe in my career, maybe in other things.
[Chaya] [1459.03s] So so it was it was the micro trauma, which Mike talked about.
[Chaya] [1463.99s] I I guess that's what I would call a micro trauma.
[Chaya] [1467.11s] And with, neurodivergent, they're constantly being told they're not right.
[Chaya] [1472.71s] And, and also with this structured brain structure being different, we tend to have a lot of promise and we believe we are not good enough.
[Chaya] [1482.67s] Right.
[Chaya] [1482.99s] So that happens a lot.
[Chaya] [1484.99s] I think this is my understanding of how it can impact neurodivergent person.
[Shoshana Cook] [1491.11s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [1491.27s] There's definitely, you know, I guess a couple of things I want to address.
[Shoshana Cook] [1494.46s] I think the first thing is that with neurodivergence specifically, you know, whether it's ADHD, whether it's autism, whether it's borderline PTSD, whatever, our brains do work differently.
[Shoshana Cook] [1504.46s] And also kind of with ADHD specifically, it's a lot of like, why can't you just focus?
[Shoshana Cook] [1509.92s] Why can't you just x, y, and z?
[Shoshana Cook] [1511.84s] And I think that's one of the things, like, we don't need to, we don't need to blame the victim here.
[Shoshana Cook] [1515.76s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1516.00s] Or we don't need to blame the client here.
[Shoshana Cook] [1517.68s] And I think we tend, as people, we forget to think or we forget to remember that, why don't we just ask the person?
[Shoshana Cook] [1524.13s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1524.44s] Like, why don't we ask, like, why are we having difficulty with this?
[Shoshana Cook] [1527.33s] Why are we struggling with this?
[Shoshana Cook] [1528.85s] But we tend to always go to almost like judging those symptoms, judging those behaviors instead of thinking, what is actually going on with that person?
[Shoshana Cook] [1537.62s] So, yeah, and I think that there's some isolation.
[Shoshana Cook] [1540.26s] I know with people with ADHD and autism as well, they tend to be a little bit more isolative because people tend to not get them as much.
[Shoshana Cook] [1547.54s] People tend to not understand them as much.
[Shoshana Cook] [1549.41s] And because of that, who wants to be around people who don't understand?
[Shoshana Cook] [1552.53s] And as it continues to be consistent and repetitive, they tend to kinda seclude themselves.
[Shoshana Cook] [1558.38s] Because it's like, I tried with this person, I tried with this person, this person doesn't get it, that person doesn't get it.
[Shoshana Cook] [1564.30s] And so it gets draining.
[Shoshana Cook] [1565.90s] It's exhausting, you know, trying to, you know, quote, unquote fit in, or as, you know, Brenna Brown says, belong in places that we don't.
[Shoshana Cook] [1573.50s] And when people, again, you know, have these different whether it's behaviors or kind of quirks or whatever, it's harder to find those people.
[Shoshana Cook] [1580.87s] It's hard harder to find those people that that get it, that understand it.
[Shoshana Cook] [1584.31s] I guess the other thing I wanna kind of briefly talk about with dissociation kind of going backpedaling a little bit is that I think that, especially in the beginning, it's not necessarily a choice whether we do it or not.
[Shoshana Cook] [1594.41s] I think that when we're being actively traumatized, it just happens.
[Shoshana Cook] [1597.61s] You know, over time, especially as we're out of that situation, then when we have the tools, we can learn a little bit more.
[Shoshana Cook] [1602.89s] But I will say that with dissociation, it's not sometimes it just happens.
[Shoshana Cook] [1606.88s] It's not always kind of an active choice of like, I want to, I don't want to.
[Shoshana Cook] [1610.39s] And I guess the other thing I just want to briefly talk about is, so daydreaming and and I'm for you, it sounds like it was dissociation.
[Shoshana Cook] [1617.04s] I'm not saying anything like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [1618.32s] But I just, for the audience, for the viewers, I just want to clarify that daydreaming and dissociating are different.
[Shoshana Cook] [1623.47s] The dissociating is a trauma response.
[Shoshana Cook] [1625.31s] So for example, for you, you know, having teachers throw chalk at you and all that kind of stuff, like, definitely sounds like a trauma response.
[Shoshana Cook] [1631.31s] But I just, I don't, I don't want viewers to to see this and be like, oh, my gosh, I'm daydreaming, I must have trauma.
[Shoshana Cook] [1637.37s] So daydreaming is a very normal response.
[Shoshana Cook] [1639.37s] Teenagers do it a lot.
[Shoshana Cook] [1640.57s] You know, especially when parents are kind of lecturing them, they kind of like are like, oh, okay, like whatever, like, when are you done?
[Shoshana Cook] [1646.33s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1646.80s] And so daydreaming or kind of zoning out, those are not trauma responses.
[Shoshana Cook] [1650.33s] Those are just being a human in some way or facet.
[Shoshana Cook] [1654.34s] But, no, I I I completely hear you that, you know, with neurodivergence or just I think neurodivergence specifically, but also anyone who just doesn't really feel like they belong.
[Shoshana Cook] [1665.35s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1665.90s] Because we're living in this world with so many people, and we're living in this world where there are a lot of diversity.
[Shoshana Cook] [1671.11s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1671.42s] There are a lot of people with differences.
[Shoshana Cook] [1673.35s] But when we have specific differences, it can be a little bit harder to kind of feel like we belong or we we are accepted in the things that we do that are not the, quote, unquote, norm.
[Shoshana Cook] [1682.96s] Right?
[Chaya] [1683.36s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1684.32s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [1684.80s] Thank you for clarifying.
[Chaya] [1686.00s] Yes.
[Chaya] [1686.40s] I I don't believe that my daydreaming was a trauma response.
[Chaya] [1690.64s] I think I did mix up because the chalk, that I can never forget.
[Chaya] [1694.92s] Like, the tears rolling down my eyes, and and I believed I was not good enough.
[Chaya] [1700.44s] Right?
[Chaya] [1700.68s] I was not smart.
[Chaya] [1701.88s] Those instances did.
[Chaya] [1703.40s] But I think the daydreaming I mean, I still daydream and I love it.
[Chaya] [1708.46s] I think.
[Chaya] [1708.94s] Yeah.
[Mike] [1709.42s] You mentioned the importance of listening and taking, like, the individual into account.
[Mike] [1714.94s] How do you ensure that your clients feel heard and understood when you're trying to work out a plan for them.
[Mike] [1723.57s] So they have their word in, but you can also sort of guide them to where you would like them.
[Mike] [1729.57s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [1729.72s] I do a lot of questions, and I I if I have any clients watching this, I feel like, yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [1734.34s] This is accurate.
[Shoshana Cook] [1735.30s] I almost, to a fault, say maybe almost too much.
[Shoshana Cook] [1738.02s] Does that make sense?
[Shoshana Cook] [1739.06s] Or do you hear that?
[Shoshana Cook] [1740.26s] Or are you are you good with that?
[Shoshana Cook] [1741.86s] You know?
[Shoshana Cook] [1742.26s] Because I always I try my best to be very client centered.
[Shoshana Cook] [1745.15s] And so whether it's things as simple as, you know, you're taking well, I don't take insurance anymore.
[Shoshana Cook] [1750.52s] But when I did, I you know, for insurances, I haven't diagnosed you.
[Shoshana Cook] [1754.43s] This is what you have, or this is what I feel like you have.
[Shoshana Cook] [1756.91s] Is this okay with you?
[Shoshana Cook] [1757.80s] And I often have clients say, well, you're the professional.
[Shoshana Cook] [1760.72s] I'm like, yeah, I know, but you're the client.
[Shoshana Cook] [1763.52s] And because that's on your record.
[Shoshana Cook] [1765.52s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1765.76s] And, like, I think that it's important for 1, you to understand why this is the diagnosis that you have.
[Shoshana Cook] [1771.04s] And 2, for you to, you know, feel like you resonate with it.
[Shoshana Cook] [1774.29s] Cause insurances, they have you diagnosed a client, like, the first time you meet with them?
[Shoshana Cook] [1779.02s] And that's that's a lot, for me and probably for them as well.
[Shoshana Cook] [1782.86s] And honestly, a lot of them, they've already been in therapy, so they kind of know the gist, so they've already been diagnosed with, you know, something or the other.
[Shoshana Cook] [1789.41s] But, you know, if it's like that or if it's just you give a lot of homework, not a lot of homework each time, but I give a lot of homework in general.
[Shoshana Cook] [1796.85s] So after each session, I'll say, okay, so the next by this next week, I want you to do x, y, and z.
[Shoshana Cook] [1801.49s] And usually it's very vague and brief.
[Shoshana Cook] [1803.61s] It'll be like, I want you to make sure that you're eating an extra granola bar, you know, every day this week.
[Shoshana Cook] [1808.57s] Or I want to make sure you're kind of using the coping skills when you feel dysregulated.
[Shoshana Cook] [1813.53s] Like, it's not it's not like worksheets and textbooks or anything like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [1817.15s] But it's just so because I, I don't believe that we can really work on ourselves if we do it for 1 hour a week, and then throw it out the window for the rest of the week.
[Shoshana Cook] [1826.99s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1827.31s] I feel like it has to be a consistent process.
[Shoshana Cook] [1830.03s] And as much as I enjoy working with my clients, I do not wanna see them every day or 7 days a week for eternity.
[Shoshana Cook] [1836.72s] And so a lot of it's like, is that something that you feel comfortable doing?
[Shoshana Cook] [1840.40s] Is that something that you are willing to do?
[Shoshana Cook] [1842.33s] Is that something you're able to do?
[Shoshana Cook] [1843.85s] How do you feel about that?
[Shoshana Cook] [1844.97s] You know?
[Shoshana Cook] [1845.69s] And, well, yes, I guess, you know, to answer your question, a lot of it is just asking them, like, how do you feel about this?
[Shoshana Cook] [1851.21s] You know, what are your thoughts on this?
[Shoshana Cook] [1852.81s] And I always, after whenever I end sessions, I'm always, I ask, like, how are you feeling?
[Shoshana Cook] [1857.21s] Do you have any questions, concerns, comments for me?
[Shoshana Cook] [1859.21s] And that's kind of how I close that session.
[Shoshana Cook] [1861.13s] And, you know, I hope obviously they are they will actually ask questions or, you know, share concerns if they have them.
[Shoshana Cook] [1867.21s] But, yeah, I do, you know, I feel like I do a pretty good job in kind of making sure that they're comfortable because I don't yes, I'm the therapist, and yes, they're the client.
[Shoshana Cook] [1875.71s] But there is already a power differential, and I would like my best to decrease it as much as I as much as I can.
[Shoshana Cook] [1881.55s] So, yeah, I mean, I I don't share, like, you know, all my everything, you know, in session.
[Shoshana Cook] [1885.71s] But I think most of my clients know I have a dog and a cat.
[Shoshana Cook] [1888.13s] They know I may use examples that kind of reflect me a little bit.
[Shoshana Cook] [1892.61s] Like, I'll use examples about, like, you know, my garden or, like, things like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [1896.44s] So I try to not make it like, I'm a professional, and I'm a doctor, and you can't ask me any questions.
[Shoshana Cook] [1902.34s] So if they ever have questions for me, you know, I'll share it.
[Shoshana Cook] [1905.06s] You know, things like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [1906.02s] And obviously, I'm aware of, you know, the boundary of that, of course.
[Shoshana Cook] [1910.02s] But, yeah, I think there's some, you know, people, and even as a therapist, I go to my own therapist, and I definitely had experiences where it feels like I'm talking to a robot.
[Shoshana Cook] [1918.67s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1918.99s] Or it feels like there's no connection.
[Shoshana Cook] [1920.67s] And I think one of the biggest parts of, you know, successful therapy is having that rapport.
[Shoshana Cook] [1925.28s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1925.52s] Having that relationship because you're opening up about yourself.
[Shoshana Cook] [1928.40s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [1928.64s] You're opening about your trauma, your experiences, your life, sometimes behaviors that you're maybe embarrassed about.
[Shoshana Cook] [1934.40s] And to do that with someone with no emotion, or you feel like they're not even human, like they don't even have a life, like, that's that's hard.
[Shoshana Cook] [1941.04s] And that's not you know, I want them to be comfortable doing that instead of just doing it because it's like, I have to heal, and you're the only person out there.
[Shoshana Cook] [1949.84s] You know?
[Shoshana Cook] [1950.39s] So
[Mike] [1950.88s] Yeah.
[Mike] [1951.36s] It that's a lot of therapy in, pop culture is you're talking to a robot.
[Mike] [1955.86s] And I've definitely had experiences like that.
[Mike] [1958.82s] And I've also had some experiences with boundary breaking that was not cool and put me in slight danger.
[Mike] [1965.57s] And that's why I like peer support as well is because it has, like, that face to face power differential.
[Mike] [1970.77s] I've had people say that I should be, like, yeah, you should be a therapist or blah blah blah.
[Mike] [1975.09s] And, like, while fun, I I think I I like this part of my lane a little bit more because it gives me the certain wiggle room.
[Mike] [1982.99s] But and that's why it's important when it comes to treatment teams more or less to have people at different power differentials.
[Mike] [1990.11s] So you can have that but I don't like it when personally don't like it when therapists kind of put themselves all the way up here and treat me like I'm all the way down here.
[Mike] [1999.35s] Like, look and listen to me a little bit more.
[Mike] [2001.54s] And that's where you get into practices where there's a lot of this is how how I like to treat people, and how I like to build my treatment plan.
[Mike] [2011.84s] And what works for you personally isn't really being taken into account.
[Mike] [2016.88s] Right.
[Mike] [2017.20s] So I have definitely been pushed in, and I've seen friends and other people pushed into areas where DBT is not exactly working for them or for me.
[Mike] [2026.52s] But, hey, that's what this person happens to do.
[Mike] [2030.12s] So they are going to force you into, you know, whatever modality it works.
[Mike] [2035.81s] And I've had somebody who did family based therapy for eating disorder, and it was horrifically traumatic and just made things all the more worse.
[Mike] [2046.05s] And they could not get out of that.
[Mike] [2047.25s] I actually see that with a lot of eating disorder treatment facilities.
[Mike] [2050.88s] They tend to stick with one thing off of a checklist and tend to do a lot more harm sometimes than than good.
[Mike] [2058.95s] So I guess when you're maybe trying to like piecemeal treatment plans from taking different aspects from different techniques and, and modalities.
[Mike] [2068.53s] How do you go about like exploring those with a patient's kind of psyche to see which fits and which doesn't?
[Shoshana Cook] [2076.45s] So the first thing is I'll usually, I'll explain it briefly if they haven't, if they don't know about it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2080.82s] You know, if it's a new invention that they haven't heard of.
[Shoshana Cook] [2082.99s] So I'll briefly explain it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2084.74s] The way I kind of introduce it is, you know, from, you know, what you're sharing, it sounds like, you know, I there's a modality, intervention, whatever that I'm trained in.
[Shoshana Cook] [2092.43s] This is briefly what it is, and then I'll always ask again, how do you feel about it?
[Shoshana Cook] [2096.72s] You know, what are your, what are your thoughts on this?
[Shoshana Cook] [2098.40s] Like, whatever.
[Shoshana Cook] [2099.20s] And I will try it a couple of times.
[Shoshana Cook] [2100.88s] If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
[Shoshana Cook] [2102.08s] And then we'll, we'll switch to something new.
[Shoshana Cook] [2103.92s] I've had that happen with, with clients where, you know, I'm using a new dimension, and it's, it's not nothing is either nothing's happening or it's almost making it worse.
[Shoshana Cook] [2113.72s] So then I'm like, okay, let's let's not do this anymore.
[Shoshana Cook] [2116.36s] Let's kinda switch something else up.
[Shoshana Cook] [2118.13s] And so I'm trained in quite a few interventions, so I think that's what makes it really helpful.
[Shoshana Cook] [2122.84s] And I definitely know that there are some clinicians that are not.
[Shoshana Cook] [2126.42s] And I think that makes it difficult because not only are they kind of zoning in on technically a demographic, they're also really zoning in on the demographic within that demographic.
[Shoshana Cook] [2135.38s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2135.78s] So if someone's just a CBT, cognitive behavior therapy, that is really good for people with anxiety, but it's not good for all of everyone with anxiety.
[Shoshana Cook] [2142.66s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2143.14s] So for example, for you, like with people with autism, CBT, or people with autism is different than, like, quote unquote normal CBT.
[Shoshana Cook] [2149.53s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2150.09s] And parts therapy also is really good for a lot of people, but it's not good for that 6%.
[Shoshana Cook] [2154.57s] And I think I've had about 3 well, 2 2 or 3 potentially people in that 6%.
[Shoshana Cook] [2160.28s] So that's okay.
[Shoshana Cook] [2161.16s] But let's switch something up and do something different.
[Shoshana Cook] [2163.80s] I'm a believer that healing is possible, but we need to find the right fit to get to that place.
[Shoshana Cook] [2169.16s] And yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [2169.95s] No.
[Shoshana Cook] [2170.28s] Check-in, you know, if we've used a different, you know, modality, because I think parts therapy, I I think it's like a newer ish well, at least the, at least the creator event or whatever is still alive, so we'll give it that.
[Shoshana Cook] [2180.36s] Like a newer ish kind of intervention.
[Shoshana Cook] [2182.36s] And so not a lot of people have heard about it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2184.20s] So usually if I introduce it, oftentimes, honestly, the person, the client, they're like, oh, I've never heard of this.
[Shoshana Cook] [2190.41s] And I'm like, okay.
[Shoshana Cook] [2191.53s] So we do it, and then I'll always check-in, like, how did that feel?
[Shoshana Cook] [2195.13s] You know?
[Shoshana Cook] [2195.69s] And I usually will give homework.
[Shoshana Cook] [2197.13s] So we create, like, one part at a time.
[Shoshana Cook] [2199.29s] So, hey.
[Shoshana Cook] [2200.03s] Like, I want you to talk to this part throughout the week.
[Shoshana Cook] [2202.03s] And then next week, I see them or in 2 weeks or kind of whatever our schedule system is.
[Shoshana Cook] [2206.59s] And I say, okay.
[Shoshana Cook] [2207.71s] Like, how did that feel?
[Shoshana Cook] [2208.84s] You know, how did it feel talking about part?
[Shoshana Cook] [2210.51s] Do you feel like you've made anything has changed?
[Shoshana Cook] [2213.09s] Do you feel not really?
[Shoshana Cook] [2214.21s] Did it feel weird?
[Shoshana Cook] [2215.09s] Like, you know, what's going on?
[Shoshana Cook] [2216.77s] And yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [2217.81s] So a lot of it's kinda checking in because I I feel I don't kinda with that power differential, I don't wanna be someone who you need to have therapy for the rest of your life.
[Shoshana Cook] [2226.84s] My goal is to give you the tools and the resources to be able to do it on your own.
[Shoshana Cook] [2231.32s] Because I there's definitely kind of some cases that are gonna be longer term HSR, but I don't need to be on your deathbed as you're continuing working with me.
[Shoshana Cook] [2240.44s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2241.08s] And I think that I'm kind of a guide and a resource to help you get to where you want to be.
[Shoshana Cook] [2245.32s] But again, not I don't want to enable you.
[Shoshana Cook] [2247.48s] I don't want to be your crutch kind of thing.
[Mike] [2249.72s] Yeah.
[Mike] [2250.12s] It I always liken it to you're going to get an education and you're hoping to graduate.
[Mike] [2255.36s] I mean, it's always good to have things and, you know, keep going your back pocket or, or whatnot.
[Mike] [2260.16s] I remember being so proud when my therapy appointments went down to like once a month.
[Mike] [2264.64s] It was like, hey, I made it.
[Mike] [2266.47s] I got to the next level.
[Mike] [2267.76s] And I think also something you kind of touched on there is whenever you whenever you aren't taking the whole of an individual into account for those kinds of things, it's also a flagrant pushing aside of cultural competency.
[Mike] [2282.10s] Because not only is there difference, I mean, everybody's different.
[Mike] [2285.51s] Different.
[Mike] [2286.32s] If you can't treat every neurotypical exactly the same way, you can't treat every neurodivergent the exact same way, but also in there, you can't treat anyone with the same gender expression the exact same way, the same cultural background the exact same way.
[Mike] [2298.95s] And then that creates kind of professional cultural trauma through treatment that is just further invalidation and can actually do far more harm than good.
[Mike] [2310.45s] So, thank you for for talking a bit about that.
[Mike] [2314.13s] Want to switch gears real quick because I know you have a strong interest in attachment theory.
[Mike] [2320.20s] And it's something I've been curious to learn a lot more about.
[Mike] [2323.57s] So I was hoping you could kind of explain a little bit about that and how it relates to how you go about it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2328.60s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [2328.84s] So there's 4 attachment styles.
[Shoshana Cook] [2330.44s] We have 3 insecure and 1 secure.
[Shoshana Cook] [2332.44s] I say I always when I introduce that, I say secure is like that 1%.
[Shoshana Cook] [2335.64s] We don't really need to talk about it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2337.16s] But it's those people who can have healthy relationships.
[Shoshana Cook] [2340.04s] You've had, you know, healthy parents who have modeled, you know, appropriate and healthy behavior and responses to things.
[Shoshana Cook] [2345.89s] They don't mind conflict.
[Shoshana Cook] [2347.01s] They're and when I say conflict, I don't mean fighting.
[Shoshana Cook] [2349.32s] I mean, kind of addressing, like, this is what I need.
[Shoshana Cook] [2352.05s] What do you need?
[Shoshana Cook] [2352.93s] Kind of that kind of stuff.
[Shoshana Cook] [2354.20s] They don't have an intense fear of rejection.
[Shoshana Cook] [2356.45s] Like, they're just a pretty stable individual.
[Shoshana Cook] [2358.53s] So I haven't I haven't met many of those unicorns in in my therapy practice, but maybe one day.
[Shoshana Cook] [2362.71s] And then we have the 3 insecure attachment styles.
[Shoshana Cook] [2364.95s] So we have anxious attachment, and that is people who really fear that abandonment.
[Shoshana Cook] [2369.75s] And they will do they'll go to lengths to kind of keep whoever person around.
[Shoshana Cook] [2373.64s] Oftentimes, it's partners.
[Shoshana Cook] [2375.47s] It doesn't have to be, you know?
[Shoshana Cook] [2376.91s] And usually, it's not with everyone.
[Shoshana Cook] [2378.91s] Most times, it's not with everyone, but it is with more intense, platonic, intimate, whatever types of relationships.
[Shoshana Cook] [2385.30s] They are people who they really just pour their heart out to people, and they tend to kind of really connect with someone maybe faster than the average person.
[Shoshana Cook] [2393.22s] And it is really often dysregulating when whoever the other side of the person is, right, kind of leaves, whether it's, you know, I can't do this relationship anymore, or they move, or, you know, whatever.
[Shoshana Cook] [2405.68s] Anxious attachment is often from child well, they're all from childhood.
[Shoshana Cook] [2409.53s] But anxious attachment specifically is when the parent or caretaker I say caretaker because some people were raised by grandparents, some people were in foster care.
[Shoshana Cook] [2417.44s] So caretaker in general were very inconsistent in their care for the child.
[Shoshana Cook] [2422.00s] So maybe one day, they were like, oh my gosh, like, you know, you're the best thing ever.
[Shoshana Cook] [2425.84s] I love you.
[Shoshana Cook] [2426.96s] And the next day, they just kind of were like, whatever.
[Shoshana Cook] [2430.09s] Like, just do your thing.
[Shoshana Cook] [2431.14s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2431.53s] So it's either inconsistent in the sense of one caretaker was inconsistent, or the caretakers kept switching out.
[Shoshana Cook] [2438.41s] So that's, you know, a big thing in, like, foster care.
[Shoshana Cook] [2440.57s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2440.82s] You don't really have that consistency.
[Shoshana Cook] [2442.74s] The next one I'll talk about is avoidant attachment style.
[Shoshana Cook] [2445.62s] That is when you well, let me start here.
[Shoshana Cook] [2448.10s] Avoidant attachment style is people who are very closed off.
[Shoshana Cook] [2450.74s] They're very guarded.
[Shoshana Cook] [2451.78s] There are a lot of like those stereotypical, like, movies with like, you know, the tough guy, like things like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [2457.39s] You know, they're closed off.
[Shoshana Cook] [2458.68s] They do have a heartbeat.
[Shoshana Cook] [2459.88s] It takes a while to kind of get through to them.
[Shoshana Cook] [2461.88s] They do not like conflict at all.
[Shoshana Cook] [2463.47s] So I guess anxious attachment, they don't like conflict because it makes them anxious.
[Shoshana Cook] [2467.32s] Avoidant attachment, they don't like it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2468.84s] And oftentimes, they'll just, like, run away or, like, not want a deal.
[Shoshana Cook] [2472.59s] They can appear really cold hearted, and it just they're just so guarded.
[Shoshana Cook] [2476.03s] Anxious oh, sorry.
[Shoshana Cook] [2476.83s] Avoidant attachment, those are instilled by parents who just didn't get their kids made needs met, like, ever.
[Shoshana Cook] [2483.07s] So they kind of learn to fend on their own.
[Shoshana Cook] [2484.83s] And then we have the middle one.
[Shoshana Cook] [2486.16s] The middle one is depends on where you look at.
[Shoshana Cook] [2488.72s] The name is changed, so I don't know why.
[Shoshana Cook] [2490.64s] I don't know why we just can't use one name.
[Shoshana Cook] [2492.57s] But it's either ambivalent, disorganized, or an anxious avoidant attachment.
[Shoshana Cook] [2497.13s] And this one is kind of flip flopping.
[Shoshana Cook] [2499.28s] So, you know, one day, you maybe present more anxious, the next day, you're more avoidant.
[Shoshana Cook] [2503.81s] So there's a lot of push and pull with ambivalent.
[Shoshana Cook] [2506.37s] And this one's instilled similarly to anxious, but instead of just inconsistent of, like, love and then distant, this time, it's love and then harm.
[Shoshana Cook] [2514.93s] So care and love is actually paired with trauma, abuse, or something of that nature.
[Shoshana Cook] [2520.20s] So you do see it a lot in kind of sexual assault victims.
[Shoshana Cook] [2522.99s] And so the the thing the the reason I have this passion with insecure attachment styles is because it's not recognized as a disorder, which is fine.
[Shoshana Cook] [2531.83s] But because of that, there's also there's not a lot of awareness brought to it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2535.03s] And because of that, you know, so I'm in my doctoral program right now, and I'm this is my topic for my Technically ADP, but, you know, for all intents and purposes, my dissertation.
[Shoshana Cook] [2545.32s] Because right now, the treatment for it is, like, well, you can fake it till you make it, or you can have talk therapy.
[Shoshana Cook] [2550.77s] And I'm like, wow, that is great advice.
[Shoshana Cook] [2553.09s] Like, thank you so much.
[Shoshana Cook] [2555.30s] And for providers, it really it's a struggle.
[Shoshana Cook] [2558.18s] Because when you see someone like that, it's really hard to, like, well, what do I do?
[Shoshana Cook] [2561.46s] I can't tell them to fake it to make it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2563.06s] You know, and it's providers are a lot of providers are really lost in how they approach these clients.
[Shoshana Cook] [2568.36s] And because you have to give a client a diagnosis, a lot of them, unfortunately, are diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, which is a chronic, very intense disorder that people don't really wanna be diagnosed with.
[Shoshana Cook] [2579.56s] I think for many people, if they were to decide between I mean, obviously like hypothetically, right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2584.81s] If they want to be diagnosed with borderline or schizophrenia, it's pretty eating keel.
[Shoshana Cook] [2588.57s] Like it's pretty fiftyfifty.
[Shoshana Cook] [2589.85s] Like it's not, it's, it's just a disorder with a lot of stigma.
[Shoshana Cook] [2593.21s] And so, yeah, I think that's, you know, when the passion is And what I've seen, you know, in my work is that people can be super stable and super fine.
[Shoshana Cook] [2601.95s] And like, oh yeah, I can do one once a therapy.
[Shoshana Cook] [2604.03s] And then all of a sudden, they attach to this person and they're dysregulated.
[Shoshana Cook] [2609.23s] Sometimes they're even suicidal.
[Shoshana Cook] [2610.51s] They regress.
[Shoshana Cook] [2611.15s] They kind of experience, like, self harm, and, you know, different things like that, you know.
[Shoshana Cook] [2616.03s] And it's just kind of like their world flips upside down, and they just don't know how to function anymore.
[Shoshana Cook] [2620.51s] And again, right now, there's not a whole lot of evidence based treatment of like, oh, this is what we do.
[Shoshana Cook] [2625.84s] And I think a lot of that is because people, not that people don't care, but people, it's not being, there's no diagnosis, so it's not even being reimbursed by insurance.
[Shoshana Cook] [2634.97s] And so essentially people have to like finesse or like kind of fake a diagnosis.
[Shoshana Cook] [2639.45s] And, you know, I have a love hate, mostly hate relationship with diagnosis.
[Shoshana Cook] [2643.77s] I think they can be great to like kind of inform how to treat a client and also to kind of help understand, you know, oh, I feel this, this, and this because of this.
[Shoshana Cook] [2653.22s] Or almost, in some ways, it can be validating.
[Shoshana Cook] [2655.55s] You know, I'm not just crazy.
[Shoshana Cook] [2656.82s] I have anxiety.
[Shoshana Cook] [2657.63s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2657.94s] I'm not just crazy.
[Shoshana Cook] [2658.74s] I have depression.
[Shoshana Cook] [2659.78s] Or I'm not lazy.
[Shoshana Cook] [2660.66s] I have, you know, depression or what whatnot.
[Shoshana Cook] [2662.91s] But I also I don't love putting clients in boxes, and I don't love having to label people.
[Shoshana Cook] [2667.79s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2668.27s] But, yeah, I mean, I think that's my general thing is that, yeah, there's not a lot of treatment.
[Shoshana Cook] [2672.51s] There's not a lot of evidence based practices.
[Shoshana Cook] [2675.15s] Providers, a lot of providers are not really sure what to do.
[Shoshana Cook] [2678.32s] Clients are being kind of, you know, left in the dust.
[Shoshana Cook] [2680.72s] Like also, you know, if the provider doesn't know what to do, then who knows what to do.
[Shoshana Cook] [2684.39s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2684.80s] And it is something that is serious and it does impact someone's, you know, life and functioning.
[Shoshana Cook] [2689.28s] And a lot of people, you know, they, you know, either with it's avoidant, they don't have friends because no one can really get close to them.
[Shoshana Cook] [2696.49s] Or if it's anxious, they kind of push everyone away.
[Shoshana Cook] [2698.81s] So, yeah, I mean, I don't know what else to say about that, but, yeah, it's definitely something that I think it needs to be recognized more because, you know, right now, there's not a whole lot of awareness brought to it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2709.39s] And if there is awareness, it's in my opinion, and, you know, I could be wrong for us.
[Shoshana Cook] [2713.39s] But in my opinion, the awareness that's brought to it is pretty minimal.
[Shoshana Cook] [2717.07s] And I don't wanna say toxic, but misinformed, I guess.
[Mike] [2721.40s] Yeah.
[Mike] [2722.68s] Our word of the day apparently is validation because it keeps coming up.
[Mike] [2725.88s] So going going off of that, I'm curious, how do you do you see the way that influences maybe comorbid conditions?
[Mike] [2735.30s] Like, how like, does it often morph into something else?
[Mike] [2739.21s] Or does it often, I guess, interact with something else that's there?
[Shoshana Cook] [2743.70s] Mhmm.
[Shoshana Cook] [2744.26s] So oftentimes, it's, I mean, kind of from the origin of it, a lot of complex trauma is often diagnosed with it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2750.59s] And also complex trauma is not a diagnosis either.
[Shoshana Cook] [2753.23s] So we diagnose them with trauma because this is how the system works.
[Shoshana Cook] [2758.19s] And, but generally, like there's some PTSD there and that's often the what I'll give the client or adjustment disorder.
[Shoshana Cook] [2765.55s] But either way, there's some trauma there.
[Shoshana Cook] [2767.07s] And that's kind of why these things have have manifested.
[Shoshana Cook] [2769.80s] A lot of depression and some anxiety because, you know, depression, because, again, whether you're avoidant, ambivalent, or anxious, you don't have a lot of friends.
[Shoshana Cook] [2778.84s] You just can't maintain those friendships or those partnerships or whatever.
[Shoshana Cook] [2783.24s] So when we're alone and isolated, we get depressed.
[Shoshana Cook] [2785.80s] And if it's chronic, we get depressed.
[Shoshana Cook] [2787.47s] Anxious, because especially with anxious attachment, obviously.
[Shoshana Cook] [2790.43s] But just with anyone, because a lot of times, they will develop a friendship.
[Shoshana Cook] [2793.80s] They will develop a, you know, a romantic partner or whatnot.
[Shoshana Cook] [2796.59s] But then they'll leave because either they're like, I can't get through to you.
[Shoshana Cook] [2799.80s] You're so guarded.
[Shoshana Cook] [2801.11s] Or, oh my gosh.
[Shoshana Cook] [2801.91s] Like, you're pushing me away.
[Shoshana Cook] [2803.19s] So anxiety is that it's it's healthy in motivation.
[Shoshana Cook] [2806.55s] You know, we don't need to be anxious every minute of the day, then it becomes a natural disorder.
[Shoshana Cook] [2810.79s] But it is healthy.
[Shoshana Cook] [2811.59s] And what it does is it helps us acknowledge or realize, like, what is what may happen, you know, what to harm.
[Shoshana Cook] [2816.82s] And when we kind of develop these patterns in our life, when we connect and then they leave, and we connect and they leave, we tend to have that that schema, that idea that, oh, when I connect with someone, they're gonna leave.
[Shoshana Cook] [2827.53s] It's gonna happen again.
[Shoshana Cook] [2828.73s] And oftentimes, it does.
[Shoshana Cook] [2830.17s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2830.41s] Because we have a self fulfilling prophecy, and we do what we do to, you know, it just keeps repeating its pattern.
[Shoshana Cook] [2836.57s] So a lot of anxiety, then OCD, and that is often connected with the trauma, not necessarily with the insecure attachment style.
[Shoshana Cook] [2843.05s] But with trauma, we don't have control.
[Shoshana Cook] [2845.26s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2845.59s] Like, that's kind of the whole idea of trauma is that something happened to us.
[Shoshana Cook] [2849.59s] We didn't have control.
[Shoshana Cook] [2850.55s] We couldn't change it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2851.51s] We couldn't fix it.
[Shoshana Cook] [2852.63s] And so what happens is sometimes it manifests into OCD, because OCD is based on control.
[Shoshana Cook] [2858.30s] It's based on creating control.
[Shoshana Cook] [2859.98s] You know, whether this is, you know, the cleaning OCD or if it's ordering or if it's numbering or whatever, and obviously subconscious, but OCD is off often linked with a PTSD diagnosis.
[Shoshana Cook] [2871.18s] And I'm trying to think of other things.
[Shoshana Cook] [2873.43s] I would say, yeah, I would say that's the general comorbidities.
[Shoshana Cook] [2876.80s] And then there's definitely things that it feels like it's a comorbid, but it's not because it's not stable.
[Shoshana Cook] [2882.64s] So for example, like, again, like I said, you know, there could be a lot of substance use or like, drinking is the main one, not like the more addictive ones, but which drinking is addictive, but I guess more like, it sound like someone's, like, going to a drug dealer and getting cocaine for, like, 5 months, and then they're like, oh, I'm done.
[Shoshana Cook] [2899.13s] Like, never mind.
[Shoshana Cook] [2900.25s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2900.80s] Or, self harm as well.
[Shoshana Cook] [2903.05s] Maybe a lot of like anger, you know, things like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [2906.32s] But it's not, I wouldn't say that's a comorbidity only because it's not stable.
[Shoshana Cook] [2910.89s] It only stays for that time where they're insecurely attached.
[Shoshana Cook] [2914.01s] And then either when that person leaves, we'll generally when that person leaves, then it kind of goes away and then they're, you know, unquote stable again or regulated again.
[Chaya] [2922.80s] I'm really interested in, the inconsistent attachment aspect.
[Chaya] [2928.24s] So what happens to the child when the child grows up, when they are raised by parents who exhibit inconsistent attachment style?
[Shoshana Cook] [2938.74s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [2938.89s] So if it's I think you're referring to the anxious attachment style where their parents are inconsistent and then child develops anxious attachment.
[Shoshana Cook] [2945.66s] Is that right?
[Chaya] [2946.46s] Right.
[Chaya] [2947.10s] Yeah.
[Chaya] [2947.34s] I I'm sorry.
[Chaya] [2948.06s] So my terminology is I I'm not you know, it's not coming from education.
[Chaya] [2952.94s] It's just Okay.
[Chaya] [2953.98s] From experiences and from what I see.
[Chaya] [2956.73s] Yes.
[Chaya] [2957.14s] That's exactly what I'm
[Shoshana Cook] [2958.73s] What happens with those clients or, you know, children when they grow up, if it's not something that's worked on by the parent, then it continues.
[Shoshana Cook] [2966.57s] So as a kid and I guess I will say with kids, they're very like you said before, like, they're sponges.
[Shoshana Cook] [2971.38s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2971.53s] They suck up everything that we tell them, whether good or bad.
[Shoshana Cook] [2974.49s] And the reason is because it's a lot easier.
[Shoshana Cook] [2976.25s] It's a lot safer to feel like, yeah, you're right.
[Shoshana Cook] [2978.73s] I am dumb.
[Shoshana Cook] [2979.53s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [2979.69s] You're right.
[Shoshana Cook] [2980.17s] I am unworthy.
[Shoshana Cook] [2981.13s] Then, oh, no.
[Shoshana Cook] [2982.17s] I'm worthy, and I'm stuck with an adult who's telling me I'm not.
[Shoshana Cook] [2985.26s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [2985.59s] It's a lot safer because we have this biological tie with our family, with our parents, with our caretakers, whoever it may be.
[Shoshana Cook] [2991.03s] And it's a lot safer to say that they're right and I'm wrong than I'm right, and I'm just stuck in this, you know, controlled, you know, environment where I'm made to feel something I'm not.
[Shoshana Cook] [3001.71s] And so that's why as kids, we internalize so much because we're stuck.
[Shoshana Cook] [3004.83s] We can't go anywhere.
[Shoshana Cook] [3005.87s] We can't just be like, well, I guess I'm gonna, you know, rent an apartment and move out.
[Shoshana Cook] [3009.47s] Like, sorry, guys, you know, we're stuck.
[Shoshana Cook] [3011.79s] And so with these kids, they often, they learn to believe that they're not worthy.
[Shoshana Cook] [3015.61s] They believe that they are not lovable.
[Shoshana Cook] [3017.61s] They believe that they can never have someone to someone that will stay.
[Shoshana Cook] [3021.68s] Like, no one will ever stay.
[Shoshana Cook] [3023.20s] So this is why they kind of have these they have these efforts to almost, like, quote, unquote, make someone stay.
[Shoshana Cook] [3029.20s] Because they believe if they don't do that, they won't.
[Shoshana Cook] [3031.62s] So, you know, this can look like kind of love bombing.
[Shoshana Cook] [3034.58s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [3034.90s] It can look like, you know, treating someone really, really nicely.
[Shoshana Cook] [3038.50s] And then and often, I guess, what I what I will say with anxious is that the minute someone leaves, they get, you know, really anxious, really upset, really distressed things.
[Shoshana Cook] [3047.86s] And maybe they'll, you know, cry for a long time.
[Shoshana Cook] [3050.43s] They'll just be really distressed, self harm, you know, all of these things.
[Shoshana Cook] [3054.11s] And they genuinely feel it.
[Shoshana Cook] [3055.22s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [3055.47s] They genuinely feel it's for them, it's like every single time this happens, they feel that they're being abandoned all over again.
[Shoshana Cook] [3061.35s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [3061.59s] They feel like they're being rejected all over again.
[Shoshana Cook] [3064.87s] And again, it's really, really difficult.
[Shoshana Cook] [3066.95s] And, they essentially grow up kind of to feel that, to believe that, all those things.
[Shoshana Cook] [3072.39s] And you know, what I will say is kind of with that love bombing, they're not doing it oftentimes, most times, manipulatively.
[Shoshana Cook] [3078.84s] They're doing it because they genuinely want this person to feel seen.
[Shoshana Cook] [3082.05s] They generally want to feel make this person feel like they're cared about because they never got that.
[Shoshana Cook] [3087.24s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [3087.48s] Like, they never felt like they were cared about, so they wanna make someone else feel loved.
[Shoshana Cook] [3090.93s] They wanna make someone else feel cared about.
[Shoshana Cook] [3093.01s] And oftentimes, it's not in a sense of, like, I'm doing this, like, so that you stay, and it's often more subconscious, but kind of those efforts, it's more it's more when they're leaving, is when they kind of do that.
[Shoshana Cook] [3104.77s] So it's more like when they're leaving, you know, they want to spend time with them, or they want to, you know, do x, y, and z, and they're like, oh my gosh, they don't leave, don't leave, don't leave.
[Shoshana Cook] [3112.63s] But, no, initially, it's often not kind of initially, it's not the insecure.
[Shoshana Cook] [3116.86s] It's only insecure when they kind of start to get that inconsistency.
[Shoshana Cook] [3120.95s] So whether it's someone's, you know, really kind, really nice, and then they kind of get, you know, a word, like, more distant.
[Shoshana Cook] [3127.35s] You know, oftentimes, you know, that's when, you know, something like that will happen.
[Shoshana Cook] [3130.79s] But, yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [3131.51s] And and again, right now, there's literally nothing that, you know, treatment for it.
[Shoshana Cook] [3135.70s] The go to right now, or at least that I do, I do parts therapy with clients.
[Shoshana Cook] [3139.53s] And I also really practice taking relationships slow.
[Shoshana Cook] [3142.82s] You know, really practice not trying to attach too quickly, and really practice kind of a gradual, you know, mutual relationship instead of something that's a little bit, you know, more quick or things like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [3154.31s] And that generally, it it can ease things, for sure.
[Shoshana Cook] [3157.27s] But it's not, I wouldn't say, a cure.
[Shoshana Cook] [3159.43s] And I I know mental health disorder has, like, a quote unquote cure.
[Shoshana Cook] [3162.63s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [3163.36s] But, yeah, I mean, again, it's I think all of these clients, whether you're avoidant, ambivalent, anxious, there are people that are they have been traumatized.
[Shoshana Cook] [3172.23s] They've had really, you know, poor upbringings in whatever way, and they're just doing their best.
[Shoshana Cook] [3177.60s] And they keep getting traumatized.
[Shoshana Cook] [3179.36s] And I I wouldn't say it's their fault.
[Shoshana Cook] [3181.12s] I wouldn't say it's the other person's fault, but it's just kind of how the system is.
[Shoshana Cook] [3184.24s] And we kind of overlook them, to be honest.
[Shoshana Cook] [3187.20s] So yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [3188.00s] So that kind of that's how they grew up.
[Shoshana Cook] [3189.68s] And they're just, I think Angers is one of the hardest ones to, to work with, only because it also transcends into therapy itself.
[Shoshana Cook] [3196.47s] And also it's very, they may see things that aren't quite there, right?
[Shoshana Cook] [3199.91s] They may kind of expect kind of some abandonment when it's not there yet.
[Shoshana Cook] [3204.81s] And then again, they kind of create that in their, in their narrative, right.
[Chaya] [3208.65s] In their, in their world.
[Chaya] [3209.93s] And trauma is something that can be passed on right.
[Chaya] [3213.05s] To the children.
[Chaya] [3213.93s] And that's why it's so important to go help yourself and, and just overcome that because it's for me, for me, the way I see is it's all energy.
[Chaya] [3224.19s] I understand things that way.
[Chaya] [3226.11s] And, and if we are carrying a negative energy inside of us, we're going to pass it along to our children who else.
[Chaya] [3234.11s] Right.
[Chaya] [3234.43s] And who will sponges.
[Chaya] [3235.76s] And so it's so important for us to heal ourselves and, and just remove any form of negativity that's inside of us because we are all beings of love.
[Chaya] [3246.24s] And, and so we have that in us.
[Chaya] [3248.96s] Right.
[Chaya] [3249.20s] But we might have locked it all off because of some trauma.
[Chaya] [3252.72s] And, and so it's so important to heal because otherwise we're going to transfer it and energy, something that you transfer over and it's going to happen in everything that we do, right.
[Chaya] [3264.64s] Even at work or whatever we do, we are transferring in our action, in our voice, in, in everything that we do.
[Chaya] [3273.86s] And so it's really important to, to heal ourselves through therapy or whatever medium we choose, and it should be more regular than what it is right now.
[Shoshana Cook] [3285.80s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [3286.20s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [3286.59s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [3286.84s] No.
[Shoshana Cook] [3286.99s] I completely agree with that.
[Shoshana Cook] [3287.95s] But I guess kind of that's where I have this huge passion with this thing, because I again, I've seen it with so many clients, but it's also this idea that even if they go to therapy, the likelihood of them being helped is very low at this point.
[Shoshana Cook] [3299.73s] Because, again, there's no you know, for a lot of therapists, there's really no go to.
[Shoshana Cook] [3303.61s] You know, it's not like anxiety or depression where it's like, oh, you have this.
[Shoshana Cook] [3306.89s] Like, there are, like, these 5 different interventions to use.
[Shoshana Cook] [3309.92s] With this, it's kind of like, okay, we can talk about it.
[Shoshana Cook] [3312.32s] I don't really know what to do.
[Shoshana Cook] [3313.68s] You know?
[Shoshana Cook] [3314.01s] So, you know, I think that's where, you know, this passion is.
[Shoshana Cook] [3317.57s] Because I've seen it, and I've seen these these people being diagnosed with, like, everything under the sun.
[Shoshana Cook] [3321.57s] And they're never actually getting help because they don't actually have anything that they're being diagnosed with.
[Shoshana Cook] [3326.21s] They have something that's, like, completely different that has no treatment for it, if that makes sense.
[Mike] [3330.23s] Where where do you see the future treatment of that going?
[Mike] [3333.43s] Do you feel like it's heading towards a direction of people working in the field of trying to figure out the best method?
[Mike] [3340.07s] Or is it just as simple as all we have to work with is giving yourself personal boundaries?
[Shoshana Cook] [3345.99s] I hope not.
[Shoshana Cook] [3347.43s] I so my dissertation right now is kind of looking at different methods and seeing kind of the effectiveness of it.
[Shoshana Cook] [3352.79s] And it's really difficult, actually, because what I'm doing is I'm basically comparing and contrasting symptoms instead of actual insecure attachment style because that doesn't exist.
[Shoshana Cook] [3363.29s] So, I mean, there are some briefly, but it's like, we have, like, 5 participants, and we had, like, a 60% success rate.
[Shoshana Cook] [3369.61s] I'm like, oh, yay.
[Shoshana Cook] [3371.05s] Like, congrats.
[Shoshana Cook] [3371.93s] You know?
[Shoshana Cook] [3372.32s] Like so generally, what I'm doing is I'm looking at symptoms from the 3 main, you know, insecure attachment styles, like anxiety, low self esteem, etcetera.
[Shoshana Cook] [3381.33s] And then I'm looking at these interventions.
[Shoshana Cook] [3383.33s] They help with these three things.
[Shoshana Cook] [3384.77s] So that's kind of what I'm doing right now.
[Shoshana Cook] [3387.01s] So right now, there's some dialectical behavior, some cognitive behavior therapy, some internal family systems, parts therapy, whatnot, and then mindfulness based stress reduction and schema therapy.
[Shoshana Cook] [3398.07s] So those are the main ones.
[Shoshana Cook] [3399.20s] I don't personally, I don't believe that any one of them is going to be solely effective as a standalone.
[Shoshana Cook] [3405.90s] I think that there's going to have to be some some crossover because I personally have worked with people within secure attachment styles and DBT alone does not work.
[Shoshana Cook] [3414.46s] DBT alone does not work.
[Shoshana Cook] [3415.90s] Arts therapy, I think that's a little bit more effective in my experience.
[Shoshana Cook] [3419.63s] And then MBSR, so mindfulness based stress reduction, also does not work, a standalone, at least.
[Shoshana Cook] [3425.78s] And I haven't done schema therapy with a client before because I'm not trained in it quite yet.
[Shoshana Cook] [3429.30s] But yeah, I think, I think it's one of those interventions or one of those things that you're going to need multiple types of interventions for.
[Shoshana Cook] [3435.68s] And so ideally, there will be some improvement with that.
[Shoshana Cook] [3438.80s] And I also, I guess I will say is that I have a good amount of clients, whether current or past, who've experienced who've been through residential treatment centers.
[Shoshana Cook] [3447.20s] And, you know, because I well, I've worked in, like, 2 of the years.
[Shoshana Cook] [3450.80s] But those are horrible.
[Shoshana Cook] [3453.51s] They I think that their their intention is to heal.
[Shoshana Cook] [3456.39s] Their intention is to work with the client.
[Shoshana Cook] [3458.23s] But one, there's so many abuse allegations in these places.
[Shoshana Cook] [3461.68s] There's a lot of, honestly, deaths.
[Shoshana Cook] [3463.67s] I was looking at some wilderness programs, and there was a lot of, like, kids dying in ways that they should never have even gotten close to that point.
[Shoshana Cook] [3472.23s] And but even past that, the turnover is ridiculous.
[Shoshana Cook] [3476.23s] You know, I was at Shepherd Pratt.
[Shoshana Cook] [3477.83s] I think in the first 6 months, the entire staff turned over.
[Shoshana Cook] [3481.53s] Like, every staff that I had been working with when I started was no longer there after 6 months.
[Shoshana Cook] [3486.57s] Like, it was crazy.
[Shoshana Cook] [3487.68s] And so if these kids are in here for, like, a year, 2 years, 5 years, whatever, that's gonna elicit that same thing.
[Shoshana Cook] [3494.43s] So again, with that inconsistency that you were talking about, Chaya, is that, yes, it can be an individual who is inconsistent, and it also can be the individual keeps switching out.
[Shoshana Cook] [3504.83s] So whether it's foster care, you're in orphanages, you know, or you're interested in your residential, it's the same deal.
[Shoshana Cook] [3511.95s] But I think people often say, oh, yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [3514.11s] Like, foster care and orphanages, but they don't look at also residential.
[Shoshana Cook] [3517.47s] So another aim, and I I never dropped this off.
[Shoshana Cook] [3520.11s] I thought I wanted to do it, but the demographic was just gonna it wasn't gonna be significant.
[Shoshana Cook] [3524.78s] Like, it wasn't gonna be statistically significant.
[Shoshana Cook] [3526.94s] But I wanted, eventually, to specifically work on adolescents who had experienced going through residential, obviously, as an adult because I have to, you know, get approved by the IRB board.
[Shoshana Cook] [3537.26s] But I had an adult who had kind of experienced going in residential and how that changed them.
[Shoshana Cook] [3541.93s] Because when I was working there, there was nothing on attachment at all.
[Shoshana Cook] [3546.34s] And I've worked with people who've been out of it for a while, and they also kind of still struggle with that.
[Shoshana Cook] [3551.85s] So it's kind of like I guess if you ask, you know, your question on, is it going you know, what do you see, you know, insist systemically it changing?
[Shoshana Cook] [3560.49s] Ideally, I would like for these residentials to at least have some psycho ed on it, whether it's just the staff We're also the clients.
[Shoshana Cook] [3567.34s] And I don't know what needs to happen, but that turnover rate needs to change.
[Shoshana Cook] [3571.11s] Because kids, their average say is, like, about a year for each one.
[Shoshana Cook] [3574.95s] If they're only in 1, then great.
[Shoshana Cook] [3577.11s] Good for them.
[Shoshana Cook] [3577.66s] Oftentimes, they're not.
[Shoshana Cook] [3578.78s] Oftentimes, they're at least in 2 or 3.
[Shoshana Cook] [3580.54s] And so if you're in, let's say, 3 years, for example, then you could potentially have, like, 30 plus different caretakers within the 3 year time frame.
[Shoshana Cook] [3590.78s] And that is not good.
[Shoshana Cook] [3593.14s] Like, for the psyche, for development, for relationships long term, like any of that.
[Shoshana Cook] [3598.03s] Like, that is not healthy.
[Shoshana Cook] [3599.47s] But again, it's not being acknowledged.
[Shoshana Cook] [3600.99s] So it just kind of keeps happening.
[Shoshana Cook] [3602.59s] And there's limited, if anything, to do with the turnover.
[Shoshana Cook] [3605.63s] Like, when I was there personally, and not trying to bash any organization I worked at.
[Shoshana Cook] [3610.00s] But I got minimum wage.
[Shoshana Cook] [3611.44s] I got more in Starbucks than I got in some of these places, and that's the problem.
[Shoshana Cook] [3615.92s] Like, I should not be working with teens in a lockdown facility, and then work at Starbucks and get more at Starbucks.
[Shoshana Cook] [3620.89s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [3621.05s] And so I don't think it just has to do with the pay.
[Shoshana Cook] [3623.30s] I think it has to do with more than the pay.
[Shoshana Cook] [3624.89s] Because I also know when I was there, my colleagues were not in the field, like, at all.
[Shoshana Cook] [3629.70s] I think I had someone who was, like, wanting to be, like, a salon worker, and I'm like, why are you here?
[Shoshana Cook] [3635.02s] You know, things like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [3635.82s] So I don't know what needs to change specifically, but I think that the turnover rate needs to change, and I think that's kind of the first step.
[Shoshana Cook] [3641.18s] But also some education around the impact of doing this, and it's it's a 2 edged sword.
[Shoshana Cook] [3647.10s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [3647.34s] Because I don't I don't wanna say that I don't want to say like, oh, no, you need to stay at a workplace that's potentially toxic for like years.
[Shoshana Cook] [3654.41s] But I also don't want to say that leaving is just an easy decision because you are impacting, you know, vulnerable populations.
[Mike] [3661.36s] Yeah.
[Mike] [3661.68s] The, the gaps, both systemically in the mental health systems that are in place and also the knowledge base, they're, as of late, have been kind of quickly catching up to the broader society and the ramifications of them because then you do see a lot of those high turnover rates, which is having a great many treatment centers and low staffing in them.
[Mike] [3683.01s] And unfortunately, that also creates a bit of a of a business cycle that feeds on itself because then we start having just greater behavioral mental mental health problems that then cause honestly just more people not to more or less want to enter the field or deal with the field and the more higher up systemic problems that are harming that lower base foundation.
[Mike] [3708.14s] And so much of the knowledge base at this point is moving so slow, that there is so much literature people are still going off of that at this point is so incorrect and out of date.
[Mike] [3720.41s] And we're still waiting for updates on it with new information that has has come out.
[Mike] [3726.21s] And I don't even blame a lot of times some professionals for not having for not having the know all to go out and look for the other information that's out there to go through all these scholarly records that are avail are available.
[Mike] [3740.43s] And it's great that they're publicly available.
[Mike] [3742.18s] But at times, it's not always up for, like, everyone to do independent research and, you know, go on PubMed or whatever else and and do hours upon hours of reading.
[Mike] [3752.69s] And then yeah, but all the all the things that we're supposed to be basing off basing this off of is still saying the opposite.
[Mike] [3758.85s] And that's where you get it was only recently that you can be you can be both ADHD and autistic at the same time.
[Mike] [3765.01s] You know, I've mentioned before that it was only in 2013 that I could be diagnosed with anorexia.
[Mike] [3771.66s] So like, we're still like, really, really friggin far behind all this.
[Mike] [3776.38s] And then and that's how you're seeing so much So many people get left behind and continue to be misdiagnosed.
[Mike] [3783.92s] And those misdiagnosis pile on top of other misdiagnoses, and it gives everything a very it gives everything a bad name, arguably.
[Mike] [3791.80s] We're not getting the the recognition that's that's necessary through good research and good listening to individuals.
[Mike] [3799.80s] I mean, it is a sad day sometimes where I can find more accurate data.
[Mike] [3805.64s] I can't believe I'm about to say this on social media than in actual textbooks.
[Mike] [3810.76s] That's not good.
[Mike] [3811.88s] I shouldn't.
[Mike] [3812.68s] That makes me feel dirty just saying that.
[Mike] [3815.08s] And I I dislike it so much.
[Mike] [3817.00s] But yeah, things need to change.
[Mike] [3819.76s] Those those gaps need to be filled and rapidly because the it's getting more and more cavernous every single day.
[Shoshana Cook] [3826.47s] One of the things with textbooks is that they need to be written by different people.
[Mike] [3829.68s] Yeah.
[Mike] [3829.99s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [3831.52s] Like, I think that a lot of time and and nothing about the authors of the textbooks that I'm reading.
[Shoshana Cook] [3836.77s] But a lot of the time, they're written by people who are scholars, which is great.
[Shoshana Cook] [3840.69s] But they're not often written by people with experience.
[Shoshana Cook] [3843.17s] And I know for a fact for me, like, when I was in school, and again, you know, don't come after me.
[Shoshana Cook] [3848.61s] But when I was in school, I learned a lot more in the field and experience than I did in with the teachers that I and teachers were great.
[Shoshana Cook] [3856.05s] They were lovely.
[Shoshana Cook] [3856.93s] They did teach me things.
[Shoshana Cook] [3858.14s] But really that hands on is what really kind of elevated my experience and my understanding and things.
[Shoshana Cook] [3864.00s] You can only learn so much from pages on a book, right?
[Shoshana Cook] [3866.64s] Or words on a page or whatever.
[Shoshana Cook] [3868.24s] And I, yeah, I think the experience, it counts.
[Shoshana Cook] [3871.28s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [3871.52s] It means something.
[Shoshana Cook] [3872.64s] And I would love to see textbooks written by people who have, you know, really been in the trenches, who have really experienced being in these different fields.
[Shoshana Cook] [3880.03s] And I would love to see them not being so broad and being more specific.
[Shoshana Cook] [3884.68s] So, like, just, you know, I think the textbook I just recently read for one of my classes, it was like abnormal psychology or something.
[Shoshana Cook] [3892.14s] And it was like literally every single diagnosis under the sun.
[Shoshana Cook] [3894.94s] And I'm like, you can't be an expertise in all of them.
[Shoshana Cook] [3897.58s] You just can't.
[Shoshana Cook] [3898.22s] And so I really think that we need to maybe maybe systemically, you know, change how we write textbooks and just have like, like almost mini textbooks.
[Shoshana Cook] [3905.70s] Instead of having chapters, just having a book of like, I don't know, personality disorders, trauma, this, that, and read it off that instead of just this really large scale of like, these are these random people who are scholars who have done research, and this is all that they found.
[Shoshana Cook] [3920.05s] You know, because, again, I think that words can only do so much.
[Shoshana Cook] [3923.57s] And, you know, straying a little bit away from the mental health field, we know for a fact now that, like, the textbooks on American history, like, they're very biased.
[Shoshana Cook] [3932.72s] They're very one-sided.
[Shoshana Cook] [3934.24s] And I feel very similarly.
[Shoshana Cook] [3936.32s] Because I I know that I've read things in textbooks.
[Shoshana Cook] [3938.48s] I'm like, that's not accurate.
[Shoshana Cook] [3940.09s] Like, I don't know.
[Shoshana Cook] [3940.96s] It's not right.
[Shoshana Cook] [3943.36s] And, yeah, I, you know, again, like, I wonder how many how many things have been put in textbooks that aren't accurate that people really internalize to be true and how that has harmed, you know, clients or patients or what whatnot, you know, over the years.
[Mike] [3957.53s] There's all the ableism in textbooks a lot.
[Mike] [3958.02s] Yeah.
[Mike] [3958.03s] Yeah.
[Mike] [3958.05s] But, yeah, the lack of, textbooks a lot.
[Mike] [3961.24s] Yeah.
[Mike] [3961.64s] Yeah.
[Mike] [3962.05s] But, yeah, the lack of any personal experience or lived experience with it.
[Mike] [3966.68s] And it's interesting that the medical field, you know, I go to a eye doctor for my eyes.
[Mike] [3972.44s] I go to, you know, podiatrist for my feet, you know, blah blah blah.
[Mike] [3977.00s] And then when it comes to mental health, like, it's all in one book.
[Mike] [3979.80s] There you go.
[Mike] [3980.52s] Everybody's brain, every, you know and we already treat the for some reason, any psychological issue or struggle as if it's not part of the body.
[Mike] [3989.72s] I'm I'm always been and maybe this is also, like, a little bit of the autistic side of me that's, like, that doesn't make any sense.
[Mike] [3995.24s] I have really semantical arguments with myself, but we treat the minds and everything it goes through as being completely separate to the body.
[Mike] [4003.16s] And and that's when you have a lot of, like, in fighting as well, I think, in the, in the mental health structure where you have people who are very on the physiological side of mental health, and then you have people who are very on the, you know, just like the psyche part of it, and not really seeing that it's all very relevant to one another, they all feed into each other, you know, they're both there, everything is kind of equally correct at the same time.
[Mike] [4029.13s] And you have to look at every every facet of it, especially going to neurodivergency.
[Mike] [4034.58s] There are so many biological facets to that on top of what those biological facets then creates mentally with separate struggles.
[Mike] [4045.74s] And that can be a whole it's a whole other conversation.
[Mike] [4047.91s] But yeah, before we before we wrap up, I did want to ask since you, you know, do do with a lot of trauma, and you are kind of like putting yourself out there to really dig into some of these headier topics that other people aren't really spending the proper time on.
[Mike] [4061.72s] How do you take care of your own mental health while working in that field?
[Shoshana Cook] [4065.96s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [4066.20s] So before I answer that question, I do wanna, you know, quickly address something you said before.
[Shoshana Cook] [4070.61s] It's interesting.
[Shoshana Cook] [4071.41s] A couple years ago, I think it was, I was and maybe I'll still do it in the future.
[Shoshana Cook] [4075.32s] I don't know.
[Shoshana Cook] [4076.05s] But I was determined I was gonna change the word mental health, like like, systemically, like, for the world.
[Shoshana Cook] [4080.84s] I didn't know the process to do that.
[Shoshana Cook] [4082.20s] But I was determined I was gonna do that because I hate that word.
[Shoshana Cook] [4085.64s] I hate that when we ever we talk about it, it's mental.
[Shoshana Cook] [4089.54s] Like, that's literally what it is.
[Shoshana Cook] [4091.06s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [4091.54s] And it's not.
[Shoshana Cook] [4092.18s] So I was gonna change it to something where it would the word itself would address the brain, the body, like the physical body, and then the the psyche.
[Shoshana Cook] [4101.53s] And I don't know if that was to happen, but just something that I was gonna I just wanted to put out there as you were talking about kind of how we are so almost segregated and how we see mental health, or whatever word you wanna use.
[Shoshana Cook] [4113.13s] So anyways, how do I take care of my mental health?
[Shoshana Cook] [4116.25s] A lot of it is just doing things that I like doing.
[Shoshana Cook] [4119.13s] Every weekend, I'll try and do at least one thing that is like a big mental health thing.
[Shoshana Cook] [4124.33s] Right?
[Shoshana Cook] [4124.65s] So maybe it's going taking a hike, or maybe it's, you know, going to artist market or farmer's market or whatever.
[Shoshana Cook] [4130.80s] Just something that's, like, more big.
[Shoshana Cook] [4132.31s] But daily, I will do you know, I have these practices where I'll always try and, you know, focus on like, I'll focus on gratitude.
[Shoshana Cook] [4139.19s] So I wake up every morning, you know, I just, like, you know, focus on what I'm thankful for and, you know, what I've been given, what I've been blessed with, you know, things like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [4146.69s] But then every day, like, I will, you know, make sure I eat.
[Shoshana Cook] [4149.41s] I have a dog and a cat, so cuddles and pets with them.
[Shoshana Cook] [4152.53s] I have a garden outside.
[Shoshana Cook] [4153.73s] So I just try and, you know, ensure that I'm practicing the habits or my hobbies that I that I am.
[Shoshana Cook] [4159.49s] And, yeah, I try my best.
[Shoshana Cook] [4161.63s] It doesn't work all the time, but I try my best to eat healthy.
[Shoshana Cook] [4164.51s] So try not to have, you know, days on end of just like chips and ice cream as much as those are great.
[Shoshana Cook] [4170.27s] And socializing, you know, I have, you know, a good network of friends that I can text and talk to and reach out to, you know, things like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [4177.91s] And executive functioning is a big one for me, just because of all the different, like, elements of my life that I'm trying to focus on.
[Shoshana Cook] [4184.07s] So obviously, I do therapy.
[Shoshana Cook] [4186.23s] I'm also, again, like a doctoral student full time.
[Shoshana Cook] [4189.56s] And then I'm also I have, an Etsy store for, like, resources for therapists as well.
[Shoshana Cook] [4194.36s] So I have a lot, and then I have a social life, and then I have animals and all the other things.
[Shoshana Cook] [4199.73s] So and I try to do my best to kind of volunteer and serve where I can as well.
[Shoshana Cook] [4203.76s] So I've got a lot going on.
[Shoshana Cook] [4205.20s] And because of that, you know, doing my best to not be overwhelmed, but also doing my best to ensure that my expectations are realistic in a sense of they're not unrealistic.
[Shoshana Cook] [4215.36s] And and when they are unrealistic, to kind of let go, you know, to practice letting go because I don't I'm human, so I'm not going to be perfect.
[Shoshana Cook] [4223.15s] I'm going to have days that are a little bit more rough.
[Shoshana Cook] [4225.31s] So kind of giving myself some grace and some mercy kind of in those in those times and those days.
[Shoshana Cook] [4230.19s] So it's not like I'm beating myself up over not being able to do x, y, and z and things like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [4236.67s] And, you know, trying to limit like social media time and getting outside when I can, you know, things like that.
[Mike] [4243.07s] Hey.
[Mike] [4243.39s] Thank you so much for coming on and talking.
[Mike] [4246.05s] This has been a really fascinating topic to delve into.
[Mike] [4249.32s] I'd actually like to maybe delve into it more sometime in the in the future, particularly attachment theory, which I think could go very far and how maybe it relates more to neurodivergency particularly as well.
[Mike] [4260.39s] But how can everyone find you and your your practice?
[Shoshana Cook] [4264.31s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [4264.63s] So mainly Instagram.
[Shoshana Cook] [4265.99s] So if you go on Instagram, my handle is renewed.
[Shoshana Cook] [4270.95s] Healing.
[Shoshana Cook] [4271.91s] Therapy.
[Shoshana Cook] [4272.64s] And from there you can find my practice link for therapy.
[Shoshana Cook] [4275.28s] So I only see right now Maryland clients, but if you would like to schedule a consult, if you're in Maryland, then let me know.
[Shoshana Cook] [4281.91s] And so you'll find that in the, like the link in the bio.
[Shoshana Cook] [4285.25s] And then if you are a provider who wants to look at kind of resources or whether you're, you know, a therapist or a coach or if you're a support, you know, whatever, my Etsy link is also there.
[Shoshana Cook] [4295.33s] And if you're someone who does not use Instagram, that is totally fine.
[Shoshana Cook] [4298.55s] And then my website is essentially renewed healing therapy.com.
[Shoshana Cook] [4303.18s] So no dashes, no dots, nothing like that.
[Shoshana Cook] [4305.26s] And that's kind of how, you know, you can find me.
[Shoshana Cook] [4307.43s] And again, if you are a new potential client, you know, feel free to schedule a consult.
[Shoshana Cook] [4311.82s] I offer a free 15 minute consult and ask any questions and anything like that.
[Mike] [4316.52s] And I will be sure to include those all in the show notes for everyone to find.
[Mike] [4321.16s] For Spark Launch, we are always of course at sparklaunchpodcast dot
[Shoshana Cook] [4324.94s] com.
[Mike] [4325.10s] On Instagram at the underscore spark launch.
[Mike] [4328.45s] I'm also on Instagram at follows his ghost.
[Mike] [4331.81s] I like how I sigh when I say I'm on social media.
[Mike] [4335.18s] And other places you can find my links, of course, for Chaya and I at sparklaunchpodcast.com.
[Mike] [4342.55s] And for ADHD coaching through Spark Launch, it is sparklaunch.org.
[Chaya] [4347.99s] Thank you.
[Chaya] [4348.55s] You have brought light to why it's important to talk about to to address the root cause for mental health and not just symptoms.
[Chaya] [4357.40s] Right?
[Chaya] [4358.20s] And I feel this culture is more just focusing on symptoms.
[Chaya] [4362.05s] And and thank you for talking about so much knowledge that I I I wasn't aware of.
[Shoshana Cook] [4368.46s] You're welcome.
[Shoshana Cook] [4368.78s] Yeah.
[Shoshana Cook] [4369.02s] Again, thank you for having me.
[Mike] [4370.38s] We'll see you next time.